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Sunset at the North Campus © Roland Baege​/​TU Dortmund
TU Dortmund in Conversation Special

Berkeley Professor Discusses Sentience of AI

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The picture shows a male reading behind a desk. The TU logo sign hangs in front of the desk. The green TU logo as a “stand” can be seen at the bottom right of the picture. © Hesham Elsherif​/​TU Dortmund
Prof. Edward A. Lee: The American computer scientist and electrical engineer conducted research at both MIT and the University of California, Berkeley.
Can machines one day develop something like consciousness? How does Artificial Intelligence (AI) change when it not only analyzes data but also interacts with the physical world? These questions were the focus of Prof. Edward A. Lee’s lecture, titled “Will Embodied AI Become Sentient?”. The guest lecture by the Emeritus of the University of California, Berkeley, was as part of the “UA Ruhr Distinguished Lecture Series Trustworthy AI – TU Dortmund University in Debate Special”, jointly organized by TU Dortmund University, the Research Center Trustworthy Data Science and Security (RC Trust) of the University Alliance Ruhr (UA Ruhr), and the Lamarr Institute for Machine Learning and Artificial Intelligence.

“Artificial Intelligence is a disruptive technology and will change not only our research but every aspect of our daily lives,” said Prof. Manfred Bayer, President of TU Dortmund University, in his welcome address. However, the technology also brings challenges. Not least, the question remains of which ethical rules AI should follow. “We should not leave this field solely to commercial providers,” said Bayer. “This is where universities should step in.” After a brief introduction by TU Dortmund University Professor and RC Trust Director Prof. Emmanuel Müller, Edward A. Lee spoke to around 250 guests in Lecture Hall 6 at the South Campus. Additionally, around 130 more listeners joined the lecture on Zoom.

Sentience not objectively observable

Lee's lecture revolved around whether a machine—in this case, Artificial Intelligence—could become a sentient being. This sentience, which many animals achieve, is on a lower level than consciousness, emphasized the American computer scientist and electrical engineer. The challenge: the sentience of a being cannot be objectively observed from the outside, as he illustrated by comparing a structure in mouse brains and in an AI language model. They resemble each other in certain ways, however, no conclusions about their sentience can be drawn from this. So how can it be proven at all? This can be done through the concept of "Zero Knowledge Proofs," for which Silvio Micali and Shafi Goldwasser from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) were honored with the Turing Award, the highest accolade in computer science.

The graphic shows a drawing of a male and a female figure, which are positioned at different corners. Inside this square there is a kind of “entrance”, which is divided into two paths ‘A’ and “B”. The two paths head towards each other in a semicircle, but do not touch. © Prof. Edward A. Lee

 

Lee explained the concept using a thought experiment in which two people, Shah and Mick, stand in front of a circular cave. In the furthest part of the circular tunnel, there is a gate that blocks passage and can only be opened with the correct password. Shah wants to convince Mick that she knows the password but wants to prevent Mick from being able to convincingly tell anyone else that she knows the password. Her goal is to convince Mick without conveying any additional information, including the password. An external observer should not be able to draw any conclusions from the method of communication either.

This is possible by having Shah enter the cave first and standing on one side—A or B—in front of the gate. Mick then stands at the entrance of the cave and calls out a side—again, either A or B—, telling Shah to come out from that side. If this process is repeated many times, it will become clear to Mick that Shah must know the password because it would be extremely unlikely for both of them to randomly choose the same side of the cave every time. Most importantly, Mick gains this knowledge subjectively, as an external observer outside the cave cannot objectively verify whether Mick and Shah coordinated in advance.

“Cognitive function arises through interaction”

This thought experiment can be applied to theoretical computer science, where such a process is referred to as bi-simulation. The key point, Lee said, is that it is possible to obtain reliable knowledge, but it requires understanding the internal structure of the process. This knowledge is not observable from the outside and can only be understood through direct interaction, which challenges the scientific principle of objective observation.

What does this mean for the original question of whether AI could develop sentience? This could only happen if AI could also act in the physical world, for example, by mechanically grasping something and examining it with sensors. “Cognitive function does not form inside the brain from nothing, but through interaction with the world,” Lee explained. His thesis: Artificial intelligence will change if it can perceive and interact with the physical world. In this way, it could indeed develop self-awareness and free will. However, what is extraordinary,  is that we humans would never objectively know this, as the knowledge, like in the thought experiment, cannot be determined from the outside.

After the lecture, Prof. Lee answered questions from the guests attending the event. This was followed by a panel discussion with social psychologist Prof. Nicole Krämer (University of Duisburg-Essen), Prof. Jens Gerken (Professor of Inclusive Human-Robot Interaction, TU Dortmund University), Prof. Sergio Lucia (Professor of Process Automation Systems, TU Dortmund University), and Prof. Jakob Rehof (Professor of Software Engineering, TU Dortmund University). The afternoon concluded with drinks and snacks at the nearby Rudolf-Chaudoire Pavilion.

About Professor Lee:

Five adults can be seen sitting on chairs. A stand-up flyer can be seen in the background.
Prof. Edward A. Lee in conversation with Prof. Jakob Rehof, Prof. Sergio Lucia, Prof. Jens Gerken und Prof. Nicole Krämer (from left).

Professor Edward A. Lee studied computer science and engineering at Yale University and conducted research at both MIT and the University of California, Berkeley. Over many years, Lee has advanced the development of innovative technologies such as the open-source projects Ptolemy and Lingua Franca. His work ranges from technical foundations in robotics to signal-based systems and the philosophical and societal implications of technology.

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